Butter Top Honey Whole Wheat Bread

JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
From what I can see, it looks like the bread has huge air holes, which come from too much yeast or too long proofing. Other than that, it sure looks kinda like whole wheat bread (albeit fuzzy wuzzy, LOL).
 

Maverick2272

Stewed Monkey
Super Site Supporter
LOL, hard to see but yes lots of air holes. Too long proofing... is that rising? I think I went 45 minutes first rise and 60 minutes second rise.
And I used 3tsp. Bread Machine Yeast (from the jar). Maybe should have done 2?? I did like the consistency, nice and fluffy.
 

JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
LOL, hard to see but yes lots of air holes. Too long proofing... is that rising? I think I went 45 minutes first rise and 60 minutes second rise.
And I used 3tsp. Bread Machine Yeast (from the jar). Maybe should have done 2?? I did like the consistency, nice and fluffy.
Yep. 50% more yeast than required. Next time use 2 tsp Instant Yeast (aka Bread Machine Yeast) for two loaves. You should double in size in 60 minutes in a warm environment (80 F). The machine should control the proof (rise) temp internally as long as the lid is down.

I don't know where you buy your yeast, but GFS has the best deal...$3 for 1# of SAF Instant Yeast. Fill your Bread Machine Yeast jar and keep it in the fridge, and the rest in the freezer in a sealed container. You have a GFS at:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8146 S Cicero[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Burbank[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IL[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]60459[/FONT]
 

PieSusan

Tortes Are Us
Super Site Supporter
That is not a bad first attempt, Mav but I agree with what Joe said. You may have over risen the loaf the second time around.
 

Maverick2272

Stewed Monkey
Super Site Supporter
Yep. 50% more yeast than required. Next time use 2 tsp Instant Yeast (aka Bread Machine Yeast) for two loaves. You should double in size in 60 minutes in a warm environment (80 F). The machine should control the proof (rise) temp internally as long as the lid is down.

I don't know where you buy your yeast, but GFS has the best deal...$3 for 1# of SAF Instant Yeast. Fill your Bread Machine Yeast jar and keep it in the fridge, and the rest in the freezer in a sealed container. You have a GFS at:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8146 S Cicero[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Burbank[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IL[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]60459[/FONT]

I know where that is, it is down toward the buffet we like to go to, thanks for that way cheaper than buying the jar!
Well this helps. I will probably try again in a couple of days with this loaf. Tomorrow I am trying rolls, another one of the recipes you posted I beleive.
 

JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
I know where that is, it is down toward the buffet we like to go to, thanks for that way cheaper than buying the jar!
Well this helps. I will probably try again in a couple of days with this loaf. Tomorrow I am trying rolls, another one of the recipes you posted I beleive.

Just go to my website listed in my signature for my bread recipes. The honey wheat and the basic white bread are mirror images of each other, with 1/3 whole wheat flour and honey replacing bread flour and white sugar. I use the same recipe for a soft rye bread, subbing 1/3 dark rye flour and brown sugar for the bread flour and white sugar (also add some caraway seed). As they say, it ain't rocket science.:bonk: If I can do it, anyone can do it. Just pay attention and follow the directions.
 

Maverick2272

Stewed Monkey
Super Site Supporter
I did a twist on the rolls, litteraly LOL. I will post a thread when they are done cooking, I hope they turn out as well as they are looking so far! I used your tips and the dough is much much easier to work with, came away from the sides of the bowl as you said, etc. Made it very easy to roll out then cut into strips and twist.
They are about to go in the oven, when the come out I will make a thread on it!
 

Mama

Queen of Cornbread
Site Supporter
Okay...apparently, I'm dense and so are my loaves :lol:. They're dense and chewy. I thought I followed the recipe to the letter but apparently I did something wrong. I weighed everything...the only changes I made were to use 2 3/4 teaspoons of yeast instead of the 2 1/2 that the recipe calls for and I also added 2 teaspoon of vital wheat gluten ( I thought I remember Joe saying something about using 1 tsp per cup of wheat flour). I saw in the above post that you only knead it for a couple of minutes but in your recipe it says 5 to 7 minutes so I went 7 minutes. Maybe I over-kneaded it?
 

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JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
Sorry I missed this posting. It has been a busy weekend since the monsoons have taken a break and allowed us to cut grass, plant flowers and generally be outside for a change.

The bread looks good, but it also looks like it is either underbaked or it was cut before it was cooled. The center of the loaf looks a little dense. My question to help determine what the problem might be are:

1. Did you use tap water or filtered/purified water? I found that water from my Britta filter allows for higher rises. Our city water has so much chlorine in it that it impedes the performance of the yeast, and filtered water made a really big difference.

2. Did you test the internal temperature before removing from the oven? I like to leave it in the oven until the internal temp is at least 200F.

3. Did you allow the bread to come to room temperature (80F max) before slicing? Cutting the bread before it fully cool halts the final baking process of gelatinizing the crumb when the steam escapes through the open end, and the crumb becomes dense/chewy and the loaf often sinks.

I will presume that you used bread flour and not all purpose flour.
 

Mama

Queen of Cornbread
Site Supporter
1. Tap water.
2. No, I didn't check the temp but I did tap on it and it had the hollow sound. It wasn't doughy on it inside, just chewy.
3. Yes, I did allow the bread did come to room temperature (although it was really hard :lol:). And, nope, it didn't sink.

Yes, I did use bread flour.

How much vital wheat gluten do you use? I used 2 teaspoons but I saw on the KA Flour website that you should use 1 to 2 Tablespoons.

Could I have possibly over kneaded it?
 

Guts

New member
1. Did you use tap water or filtered/purified water? I found that water from my Britta filter allows for higher rises. Our city water has so much chlorine in it that it impedes the performance of the yeast, and filtered water made a really big difference.

I have found the same results using tap water. I use purified bottled water for my breads and sourdough pizza dough.
 

Guts

New member
mama that looks good to me I have to try this when I get time. I've been away from the board working on my pool.
 

JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
1. Tap water.
2. No, I didn't check the temp but I did tap on it and it had the hollow sound. It wasn't doughy on it inside, just chewy.
3. Yes, I did allow the bread did come to room temperature (although it was really hard :lol:). And, nope, it didn't sink.

Yes, I did use bread flour.

How much vital wheat gluten do you use? I used 2 teaspoons but I saw on the KA Flour website that you should use 1 to 2 Tablespoons.

Could I have possibly over kneaded it?

I've pondered this dilemma, and was wondering what you call "dense." I'm eating a sammy right now with this bread, and it does have a slightly chewy texture to it, but that's from the coarse grain flour, not from my methods. If you are comparing this bread with store bought bread with pillowy crumb, they are as different as apples and oranges. The bakery bread uses chemical dough conditioners to achieve that softness, and that is absent from this recipe. All of my ingredients can be easily pronounced, and are safe if taken in large quantities.

You're gonna hate me, but I don't use any vital wheat gluten. I used to use it because all the recipes called for it, but I tried a batch without it and it came out just fine.

The next time you make it check the internal temp before removing from the oven, but I'm beginning to think you're just being a little too critical of your initial efforts. It's all about practice, practice, practice. I'm sure you were not the fantastic cook that you are today when you first started out...but then again, maybe you were ALWAYS as good as you are today.:corny:
 

Wart

Banned
If you are comparing this bread with store bought bread with pillowy crumb, they are as different as apples and oranges. The bakery bread uses chemical dough conditioners to achieve that softness, and that is absent from this recipe. All of my ingredients can be easily pronounced, and are safe if taken in large quantities.


I've found the answer is sugar. For me 3 ounces of sugar per 60 ounces of dough yields a lighter, fluffier and soft bread.

You're gonna hate me, but I don't use any vital wheat gluten. I used to use it because all the recipes called for it, but I tried a batch without it and it came out just fine.

I've never used added gluten.

There were times when using AP I've wondered how much adding gluten would help, I know adding gluten would help, same with GM Better for Bread flour.

When using any of the 'better' flours bread flour, never figured out what the point would be.


The next time you make it check the internal temp before removing from the oven,

I use a remote probe thermometer.

I'll bake a batch (standard loaves, 20 oz) for 20 minutes (10 minutes for baguettes), butter the probe and quickly insert it into a loaf. When it hits 205~207 its done.


but I'm beginning to think you're just being a little too critical of your initial efforts.

That could be an issue.

I think we expect too much of ourselves and when we fall short of "perfection" (a word, and it's derivatives I have no use for) we think that , somehow, our efforts are no good.

I think we have all made something we thought was marginal, not worthy of consumption, only to watch others make it vaporize.


It's all about practice, practice, practice.

And take notes.

I can't stress that enough.
 

JoeV

Dough Boy
Site Supporter
I've found the answer is sugar. For me 3 ounces of sugar per 60 ounces of dough yields a lighter, fluffier and soft bread.
If you check my recipe you'll find that the honey is just shy of the 5% you use for "softness." I'm at 4.5%, or 1/4 oz shy of your formula. Sugar (honey) is at 7% of flour weight per my formula.

Milk will also soften the crumb, so milk can be replaced for water for hydration. Don't be afraid to let the liquid go a little on the high side. You can always reduce stickiness by adding more flour, but dryness is more difficult to correct. Again, practice and charting any changes you make will improve your outcome.

I can't tell you how many YouTube videos I have watched over the years to develop a personal technique for my bread making. We can always learn from how others do it, but at the end of the day, you will develop your own personal technique for dough handling, and will learn how hydration affects the final outcome of the bread. Your weather in the South is much different than up North, so you'll figure out things to make the bread just fine in your kitchen.

Just this past Saturday I made a loaf of Italian herb sourdough no-knead bread that normally takes 12-14 hours, in just 7 hours by adjusting sourdough starter and yeast. The water was 80% of the dough weight, which is almost soup by comparison to the honey whole wheat. Our company raved about it, and took the rest of the loaf home with her after dinner. After eating store bought bread, ANY kind of homemade bread is delicious by comparison, so don't take it too seriously, especially when first starting out.
 

Mama

Queen of Cornbread
Site Supporter
Thank you Joe, Wart and Guts. I'll make some adjustments and see what happens.
 
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