Birds of a Feather? Three Knives Together.

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The Tourist

Banned
One of the nice things about being a roguishly handsome, chiseled featured, blue-eyed, bon vivant tinker and troublemaker (this title has been bestowed in print) is that I have numerous knives laying around at my pleasure. Yikes, thery're everywhere.

I caught my dog sharpening one last night (Phfewwww, she uses a convex edge...) Inside joke.

But I do have one major benefit you might not recognize as being seemingly important. That being I can mix, match and compare!

Below are three knives which in a normal home--and I was in one, once--you might find. One is your average Chicago Cutlery blade, one is a pretty nice newer version Pampered Chef example, and one of them is a (*sigh* gush) multi-layered, Japanese, Hattori gyuto.

(While very nice, the Hattori is more to the lower end in pricing.)

Here's what I suggest. You might have questions and concerns. You might want info when they're sharp/dull. You might want to see them cut the things you like. You may want some simple tutorials on concerns you have in outfitting your kitchen for a planned upgrade. Whatever.

But these three knives do the same work (in a non-professional home kitchen) and disseminating this style of info is what Jim_Slagel and Doc have requested we address. In other words, how do the members of NC think, feel and make choices--and how best can we enhance the enjoyment of the forum.

I'd like to hear about your opinions, your needs and your hopes for a discussion here in NC. Let's debate the comparisons. Thanks.

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The Tourist

Banned
That Guyoto is one beautiful knife. :chef:

Yeah, ain't it.

Over the next few days I'm going to inspect the edges, polish if needed, take some suggestions and questions and perhaps a few pics while we make dinner.

Ron, if you get out again in the wilderness once more before the snows, I think the members here might like to see a camping style set up and the preparation knives you rely upon.
 

The Tourist

Banned
Postulates, zen, and a touch of voodoo.

To begin this treatise on raising the bar on implements for your cooking experience, I decided to start at the very bottom. And I kid you not, this is the bottom.

To be kind, the knife I chose is a Chicago Cutlery knock-off. Which is like saying that a Yugo is a "Gremlin knock-off." If a company is going to tool up to make lower cost knives, why start here? In point of fact, it's a stamped steel blank. As I worked I could see the ripples in the steel, probably from the impact of a mechanized punch press.

However, it demonstrates a very important aspect of kitchens in the real world. It is probably very representational of the average American kitchen knife jammed into the flatware drawer. And it is junk.

Initially, work of this sort begins with repair. I chose the Edge Pro (Pro Model) guided system for this job. The steel cut pretty easily, and I decided not to use medium/coarse stones here. I chose a 320 grit, which some people use as their final polishing stone for general cutlery. It does cube semi-thawed meat quite nicely.

But that was not the goal here. After the 320, came to the EP stone I truly like, the 800. With a dousing of clean water in a shameless Affogato of a cutting stone, an 800 can just about do a finish buffing.

Again, we're shooting for the ultimate. We continue with "polishing."

I began with a middle-of-the-road polishing tape, and applied a good starting buffing paste. I use Mothers Mag Wheel paste. Yes, I know it's for polishing motorcycles...

After the edge starts to mirror and any vestige of a rough edge is gone, I switch to a fine grade of polishing paper and use the best quality paste I can find, Mothers Billet paste. Yes, I know it's for polishing motorcycles...

From then on it's buff, buff, buff...

When I check the edge with my bare finger prints (called "Tickling the Dragon"), and I feel any roughness whatsoever, I adjust the setting a tad wider, or 'steeper.' You cannot actually see the setting move. I can tell simply by feel, like something had 'give.' A few buffing strokes to the very edge of the knife completes the process.

Now, this is where the debate begins, even among tinkers. First, can this 'zen' approach, or the completion of a craft, even call itself 'sharpening' as some define it? This is an eight-dollar knife, tops. Is a 100-dollar polishing a fitting way to approach this project?

To a professional chef, a 'knife' is just a apparatus for carrying the edge to the food. It's a tool that makes him/her money. It's a shiny paycheck. The signature dish is the real artform. Heck, I know cooks who would take this knife to work today. And bounce it off the floor when they went home. "It's only a knife," they would gesticulate, "I am the real star..."

But here's my opinion for NC. You must enjoy cooking or you wouldn't be here. It's a focus in your life. Your enjoyment, a chance to spread your wings. The bustle of guests, the crunch of fresh vegetables and the splash and hiss of cooking oil might be the thing in life you most value.

And if I handed you the knife, would you take it?

Now, the big question, does this answer to our debate enhance your life and the experience of preparing food? Would you approach your time in the kitchen with a newfound spirit? One down, two knives to go.

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Jim_S

Resident Curmudgeon
Gold Site Supporter
Quick question.

You mentioned that the knife was stamped. If it's like other stuff I work with stamping is the fastest and cheapest method of producing something. Not necessarily high quality but it functions.

What other methods are used? Forging, cast, etc . . . .

How do you rate the mfg methods?

What about the price difference?

sorry, more than one question. Hard to stop once I start.

Jim
 

Rhodemaster

New member
So you took a cheap Walmart Knife and spent a bunch of time sharpening it. Now it's sharp enough to slice a strawberry.

Isn't it that sharp when I take it out of the package?

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

You're asking about a professional chef using that knife in his work. I think the ergonomics of the handles may be an issue for him as well.
 
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Jim_S

Resident Curmudgeon
Gold Site Supporter
Rhodemaster, WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :tiphat:

Glad you found us!

Jim

So you took a cheap Walmart Knife and spent a bunch of time sharpening it. Now it's sharp enough to slice a strawberry.

Chico, wouldn't it have been easier if the strawberries were too large to just buy smaller ones? :yankchain:
 

The Tourist

Banned
What's the difference

Jim and Rhodemaster, that's the question I'm looking at. Of course, there is a point of diminshing returns. This knife is the example.

I believe the "equation," if I can use that word, is your ability to make your ideas become reality. For me, it might be a detailed truck, for you it might be a perfect souffle. But how do we get there, are there better plans? How do I evaluate this process?

(I think my perspective is testing cutting implements. I can't cook. But you guys can cook, you guys create. How can we get you where you wish to go?)

Basically, you asked if that process is worth it for this knife, an el cheapo, stamped steel knife. Unfortunately, this style of knife is in millions of homes. And truth be told, a knife like this even resides in many knife rolls of sous-chefs, and I've seen worse. Not everyone here can afford a full set of top of the line implements, for any kitchen job. (Hey, the sample knife is mine!)

This knife was never this sharp, out of the box or sitting in my home. But that's the debate, and the forum is a place for debates.

So, here's my position on this knife.

It's junk. It's always going to be junk. Paying a professional tinker like me three-figures for a knife that might go soft at the drop of a hat is a waste. Oh, you could barter my services--cut my grass. But real money? Not a chance.

(Oh, the point of the strawberry was to show that even this knife can be made to slice.)

As for stamping vs. forging (even MIM casting), those concerns will be addressed on the next knife. But Jim, you are correct, stamping is the fastest and cheapest way to make things, anything. I worked a plant as a boy that had a dozen automated punch-presses spitting out parts all day long, three shifts.

And the best way to run a factory like that is to use soft steel to protect your stamping dies. And you don't spend a lot of time harding those blanks. You dump them in spinning barrels full of steel shot and surface harden them.

Now, you mention function. When you got nuttin' you got nuttin' to lose. And my guess is most homes have this knife, not something better. Obviously I don't charge forum members, I never have. But the real debate is "Can I become a better cook," it's not "Can I slice like Cat Cora."
 

Rhodemaster

New member
Tourist...

You didn't answer my question...

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

How do you know that this isn't actually a good knife or at least a decent one that will work just fine in someone's home?
 

Locutus

New member
Tourist...

You didn't answer my question...

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with?

How do you know that this isn't actually a good knife or at least a decent one that will work just fine in someone's home?


Actually, this knife will work in your home. But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast, and you're left with the choice of stopping to sharpen it, or continuing to try to cut with a very dull knife.

I don't own, and can't justify buying something like a Hattori chef knife. But I do have a couple of kitchen knifes that are a good bit higher quality than this one, and when I spend the time to really sharpen them, I can get through preparing a meal, even a really fancy one, without steeling/sharpening my knife, and without having to put 25 lbs of pressure on the edge to get it through a steak.

If I'm going to be doing a LOT slicing and dicing, I often use one of my very high quality hunting knives, so I can get the food prep done without stopping.

To me, at least, it's simply a matter of having the highest quality tool that I can afford, for job to be done, and then taking good care of that tool.

Whether it's a kitchen knife or a screwdriver, I cant afford/justify the cost of the "top of the line" but I'm getting too old and ornery to "make do" with the bottom of the line.

I think what Tourist is pointing out is that with proper care, and a little effort, even less than the best can be made to perform quite well indeed. :smile:
 

The Tourist

Banned
Tourist...You didn't answer my question...

Sorry, not my intention. I did wish to profile each knife and offer my singular opinion before we started putting them head to head.

However, you are right, and I believe Locutus nailed the correct answer.

My position is that all three of these knives are common factors in American homes. For this knife in particular you can enjoy improvement, but you should also have some fairly low expectations.

I took a nap this afternoon, my wife got "snacky" and cooked up a sauce pan of butter and garlic zuchini. I had told her if she got a chance to use the knife and give me an opinion.

She gave the thing some left-handed praise. Oh, it's nice, it's better than it was, it did the job--things like that. So I cleaned the knife in a sink full of dishes and checked the edge.

The tip and the edge about an inch back still seemed crisp. The portion from the ricasso forward about two inches felt the same. However, that "middle area" already had the sensation of being worn. There were a few pieces of zuchini in the sink, and made some slices.

Yes, the knife still sliced. The rear portion of the blade did so quite easily. But those strokes had a familiar "drag" feeling I've come to know as a degradation of the edge. And this occurred in slicing five or so inches of one section of zuchini.

I can/will try two things. I have a custom made smooth butcher's steel, and I have numerous brands of paste and a free hanging strop. I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance.

Rhodemaster, thanks for the input and I'll do more singular evaluations as the knives are prepared.
 

Rhodemaster

New member
I'm becoming confused here....

Locutus said "But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast."

Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef? What makes the knife get dull so quickly? I thought Beef or any meat for that matter was pretty easy to cut.

Tourist, what do you mean by "Profile each knife?"

Also, could you explain "I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance" by using a butcher's steel. I thought you sharpen a knife by removing material from the edge. How would a smooth piece of steel
sharpen a knife?
 

The Tourist

Banned
Locutus said "But if you have to cube 3 or 4 pounds of beef, it's going to get dull REAL fast."

Yes, he's correct. There are some some knives (alloys) that can be sharpened to deftly slice a single piece of newsprint like a razor blade. Slice one onion and the knife won't cut anything. In fact, it will tear the same newsprint.

Tourist, what do you mean by "Profile each knife?"

I meant evaluate, showcase, spotlight, discuss. The term might be confusing because if you "re-profile" a knife you change the angle.

Also, could you explain "I'll see if I can bring back the edge or stop the downward performance" by using a butcher's steel. I thought you sharpen a knife by removing material from the edge. How would a smooth piece of steel sharpen a knife?

You cannot sharpen a dull knife with a steel. But you can "tune it up." You can gently re-align the edge if it's been bent slightly or rolled.

On Alton Brown's website he has a tutorial which explains the concepts discussed here--alloys, blade types, edge geometry, care and steels--in a very humorous video.

Click on the link and go down the page half-way to the part marked:

*> SEE THE VIDEO <*

It only takes a few minutes to watch, and it's very good.

http://www.altonbrown.com/shun/shun_edge.html
 

Rhodemaster

New member
You seem to know a lot about knives. a lot more than me so please bear with me so I can learn.

Locutus said that a knife would get dull from cutting meat and I asked how that could happen. Either I'm especially dense and didn't understand the answer or you forgot to answer.

I think it might have something to do with the edge being bent or rolled?

Is there some way of preventing the edge from bending, like holding the knife in a certain way or storing it correctly?
 

The Tourist

Banned
Is there some way of preventing the edge from bending, like holding the knife in a certain way or storing it correctly?

If you find a way, we'll patent it and split the profits.

The edge of a knife bends, chips or is compressed from many different uses and abuses.

For example, a chisel is meant to be driven firmly into what it needs to cut. Doing the same thing to a knife almost always causes damage. There is even a debate on what style cutting board is best for edge longevity.

Strangley, the best way to keep an edge actually makes it more difficult to cut with. A razor cuts well, but dulls easily by the nature of being fragile. An axe with a more obtuse bevel might last for months.

Most knives, and I use the word "most" very guardedly, are sharpened at about 20 degrees. A knife used in hunting called a "caping knife" might have an edge of 15 degrees or less. Most Japanese laminated blades used for slicing, or fish or chicken are about 10 degrees. A nakiri can go about 6 to 8 degrees.

As I said, you can "re-profile" any knife to a thinner edge, and many of us do.

Additionally, you can store knives better. In a wooden kitchen block, slide them into the slots upside down. It isn't going to make the knife last forever, but it helps. They also make magnetic strips for storage, and that's an esthetic issue.

Never wash a knife in a dishwasher. Use a butchers steel--lightly.

As for holding a knife, I've never heard of a technique. Of course, I have never been to culinary school. I know they teach knife handling in those classes. Perhaps a cook or sous-chef here can give you a better answer.

Now this is going to get me into trouble. I believe that edges can also undergo stresses when they are sharpened. The act of polishing actually abrades steel. I think the edge should be a stiff, lubricated and handled as delicately as possible. To achieve those conditions when I work, I freeze the knife before sharpening.
 

Rhodemaster

New member
So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen?

Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

These angles you mention.... why are they all different?

This is all rather confusing.... can you explain it simply so I can understand?
 

The Tourist

Banned
So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen?

Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

These angles you mention.... why are they all different?

This is all rather confusing.... can you explain it simply so I can understand?

The edge, when used, is both bending and wearing. Doing anything to a knife, even cutting newsprint, wears on the edge. The bending is caused by poor handling and storage, and being rammed into improper cutting boards. (Did you watch Alton Brown's tutorial?)

Angles are different because things that need cutting are different. Firewood needs to be cut into the proper size. Your face needs to be shaved. Two different angles on the cutting instruments.

As for simple or difficult to understand, that's the nature of sharpening and metallurgy. In fact, before purchasing a knife you might be well served by researched the alloy the cutler uses and then thinking about what you're going to cut.
 

joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
That would depend on the knife, profile of the knife, hardness of the knife etc. You can dull a knife on a piece of card board which is a lot softer than the steel for example. It really hasn't much to do with the hardness as many things softer than steel will dull it over time.

Now if I slice a piece of meat up with one of my knives (all Japanese) I don't notice much difference in the edge but over time a knife will go dull. I use several different length knives exclusively for just that and the edges last without need to resharpen depending on the the steel and edge on the knife.

As to why different angles are used on knives perhaps I can explain it this way. Now a Euro knife is typically softer steel than say a Japanese knife but more than a bit. Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. With a Japanese knife the blades are much thinner with more acute angles but even with them a general purpose knife like a gyuto will have a more obtuse angle than say a dedicated vegetable knife. Japanese knives are also more specific function knives than Euro knives.

I absolutely understand the confusion on this subject. I started learning about kitchen knives a little over 3 years ago when I was given a Shun as a gift. I started searching for the best way to sharpen it which opened a whole new world of high end kitchen cutlery. A good book by Chad Ward that covers kitchen cutlery as well as a lot of other things is A Edge In The Kitchen. It is carried at amazon.com as well as many other places. It is well worth a read and Chad Ward also has several sites all listed with this review of the book http://www.chadwrites.com/
 
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The Tourist

Banned
Japanese knives are also more specific function knives than Euro knives.

And while that might be another hurdle in building a nice set of knives for kitchen use, it sure pays dividends.

In many ways, I'm right there with the client on personal knives. When I began my upgrade, I started with a gyuto and a nakiri--basically "meat" and "vegetables." I made peace with myself that I would have to polish currently owned fish and chicken knives more often to enhance performance.

(Additionally, my wife is not a big fan of sashimi knives. A deba to her is just a "Japanese meat cleaver.")

I would say that my wife also handles 75% of the cutting in our home. Her preference is for lighter, whippier and shorter knives. Looking over her favorites, five inches of good steel is all she desires.

But as I told Rhodemaster, I have the luxury of being able to re-profile. Now, the Hattori could run the entire kitchen in a pinch, but my thinking is turning to securing a 4-3/4" Maboroshi No Meito Fruit Knife - Fujiwara.

My wife already has the smaller Pampered Chef santuko, and she doesn't use that much. She doesn't even use a paring knife much.

If I bought the fruit knife, with an eye to studying the edge, made the adjustments needed, it just might work for her requirments for fish and fruit. We have heavier blades and a kitchen scissors for deboning chicken.

I realize that I just confused most of our Japanese knife collectors. But there is no magical rule book for dedicated use. It's nice to have a wider spectrum of quality edged tools. However, you must also prepare yourself for the call of the wife when she says, "Hey, Tinker, what I really need is a knife for..."
 

joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
Yes my experience with my wife after 43 years of marriage is long knives makes her nervous. It has taken me two years to get her to actually use a 210mm Misono UX10 gyuto. I also have her slicing with a 240mm Takeda sujihiki. Even with the 30 or so knives I own she will still grab a 150mm petty (utility) or a 3.5" Shun Paring knife most of the time. Now I never worry about my personal choice the Chinese (thin) cleavers as she won't even watch me slice and dice with them. :mrgreen:
 

The Tourist

Banned
JoeC, that's a good topic for discussion here:

"How can a tinker get you the perfect knife?"

Both of us know the problem. The bigger gyutos might actually have the design, but a serious home cook or food hobbyist, (I like that expression better than "foodie") might actually prefer a fruit knife re-profiled to the edge of a Japanese chefs' knife.

Personally, I'd love to have a member here tell me, "Hey, Chico, I got this knife and I cook German pigs' knuckles, what can you do for me?"

It's here I think Sattie can help us. I've been asking her to send me one of her common use knives, preferrably one that runs her kitchen--and perhaps a little background about her favorite foods.

Then she could report from the perspective of a real food hobbyist working with a real knife in the setting of her individual life.

I've stated the issue I find in this equation. Chefs have one skill, and tinkers have another. We need their in-put, they need our edges.
 

Rhodemaster

New member
Tourist:

As I understand what you have been saying, knives are sharpened for specific jobs, right?

If that's is so, what did you sharpen the cheap knife to do? I don't see any mention of that. If you sharpened the cheap knife to cut something very soft and the zucchini your wife was cutting with it is rather hard, isn't that going to hurt the knife?

What is it that you change to sharpen the knife to do a specific job? The quality of polish on the edge?

I need to do a bunch more reading on this subject: there seems like a lot to learn before I can become an expert like you.
 

joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
If I can Rhodemaster, cheap knives in many cases are not worth the effort of sharpening. Knives like Chicago Cutlery sold by WalMart for example might take and edge until you cut an onion with it and get about half done when it is dull again. I would guess that 90% of the public have garbage sets of knives in their kitchen in that they bought them because they are cheap, look pretty on the counter top. With that said most will sharpen them with the attachment on the electric can opener or some other device that doesn't work.

The average home kitchen only has a need for 2 to 5 knives. That being a chef's knife (size you are comfortable with), paring knife is really the main knives. Now the rest is up to you for example a 5 to 6 inch petty knife (utility or even a boning could fill this), a bread knife if you eat hard crusted breads that need a good serrated edge, carving knife if you eat meat and longer ones if you like melon. Aside from that I made it over 30 years with a Dexter Chinese cleaver and a disposable paring knife. Both are cheap until you figure out how many of the paring knives I bought in those years. Now I have a high end paring knife that takes and holds and edge for a very long time.

Also some steels it just isn't worth going as high a grit as I do (30K in some cases) but will do fine with a 500x stone. It really does depend on the steel and knife's intended uses.
 

Rhodemaster

New member
Guys, the questions is simple....

cheap knives in many cases are not worth the effort of sharpening. Knives like Chicago Cutlery sold by WalMart for example might take and edge until you cut an onion with it and get about half done when it is dull again.

What is the difference? What makes a "cheap" knife cheap and a "good" knife good?
 

Locutus

New member
I'll try that one.

Steel is an alloy of iron and other materials. The most basic steel is 1095, which is nothing more than iron and carbon. But properly heat treated and tempered, it makes a fairly good blade steel.

Now, add 15 percent chromium, and you have stainless steel. add a tiny bit of vanadfium and tungstewn, and you have extremely hard syainless steel. Take out most of the chromiun from the last oine, and you have non-stainless "tool steel."

It gets pretty complicated, but steel for knives is like just about everything else in life. The "good stuff" is more expensive to buy raw materials for, takes more labor to make, wears tooling out faster, and, no surprise, costs more. I'll try to look up a webpage and post it.

www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73

Okay, I found it!

Read some of the stuff that goes into the various steels, and you'll see why there is such a disparity in prices, and quality.
 
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joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
Very simple there better quality steels, better blade geometry, better tempering of the steel. All of which means better cutting ability, sharper thinner edges that hold it. A good knife is hardened properly, the geometry of the blade is really thought out. A cheap knife is often stamped out of a sheet of steel then cut into shape with little or no tempering. They design based on what they think a knife should look like with a fancy handle, fancy set with a block none of which is what it is all about except their bottom line. In knives you really do get exactly what you pay for.
 

Locutus

New member
Rhodemaster,

I don't mean to frighten you, but you sound an awful lot like me 15 years ago! :D:D

Someone got me interested in sharpening my own hunting knives, and I bought a set of Crock Sticks.

Now I'm reading books on metallurgy, and experimenting on $300 blades. When you get addicted, look back anbd remember that I warned you. :mrgreen:

Seriously, keep the questions coming! When I have to answer a question, most of the time, I end up learning as much as the person who asked! :tongue:
 

joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
Here are my 3 favorite sites for buying knives.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html
http://www.epicureanedge.com/default.asp?websess=41154421746347
http://www.korin.com/

Now some good entry level knives are Tojiro, Kanetsugu Pro M Series, Hiromoto just to name 3. These are all fairly inexpensive but a single knife will cost more than the junk set from WalMart. I suggest to people they spend the most on their most used knife and but the others as needed spending down for those knives least used. Korin has its own line of knives that are made by a great knife making company in Japan so they are a great value also.
 

Rhodemaster

New member
I'm becoming rather confused and frustrated, maybe I just forgot how to read.

I have asked questions that aren't being answered, with each question there seems to be a different aspect of knives being brought into the conversation instead of an answer to the question.

From the reading you've suggested I have come to understand that knives aren't as simple as I thought, but I think the questions I have asked are valid and worthy of answers.

If the goal is to confuse, you're doing a very good job.

Here are the questions that haven't been answered:

Isn't it (the cheap knife you sharpened?) that sharp when I take it out of the package? You cut a strawberry, something I would think any knife should be able to do.

What's the difference between the knife when you started and what you ended up with? Aside from the edge looking very shiny, what did you accomplish. I recall you saying that it became dull when you cut a zucchini, again something I would think any knife could cut.

Locutus said that the cheap knife would become dull from cutting beef. Why would the knife become dull from cutting beef? What makes the knife get dull so quickly? I thought Beef or any meat for that matter was pretty easy to cut.*

Tourist said that the edge bends which makes the knife seem dull. So. when I'm cutting meat, the edge is bending? How can that happen? Steel is very hard and meat is very soft, right?

JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives. I did some of the reading that you recommended and I'm under the impression that knives are hard or soft because of heat treating. I have more questions about that as well but I'll ask them later because we haven't talked about that yet and I do have a question about the next thing JoeC said.

He said: “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

Is that rolling the same as the bending that Tourist was talking about?

If it is and if the Japanese knives have different angles, do they do that to prevent the bending and if so, why wouldn't Tourist have done that to the cheap knife to prevent the problem?

Tourist has mentioned different angles on razors and on axes, I'm thinking that knives are somewhere in between, but that is a pretty big between. Why are the angles so different between knives. I'll probably ask the same question related to steel if you'll permit me to continue asking questions.
 

joec

New member
Gold Site Supporter
JoeC said that European Knives use softer steel than the Japanese Knives. I did some of the reading that you recommended and I'm under the impression that knives are hard or soft because of heat treating. I have more questions about that as well but I'll ask them later because we haven't talked about that yet and I do have a question about the next thing JoeC said.

He said: “ Euro knives are also typically thicker, heavier and require a more obtuse angle on their blade or they will roll over if too thin. “

Is that rolling the same as the bending that Tourist was talking about?

If it is and if the Japanese knives have different angles, do they do that to prevent the bending and if so, why wouldn't Tourist have done that to the cheap knife to prevent the problem?

Tourist has mentioned different angles on razors and on axes, I'm thinking that knives are somewhere in between, but that is a pretty big between. Why are the angles so different between knives. I'll probably ask the same question related to steel if you'll permit me to continue asking questions.

OK a harder knife will not roll as easily as a soft knife period but it will chip easier than a soft knife. This is why hunting knives, swords are not hard but do have thicker blades than say a Japanese knife.

Now the type of metal used will have a range of heat treatments. In plain simple words Hitachi steel produces the best steels on the planet. Japanese knives use Hitachi steels but Hitachi won't sell to Europe or the US. Now there are some good steels made by both Europe and the US but not grades that are particularly good in kitchen knives.

Chico is correct in that some things will require a stronger edge. Here is an example say a cleaver that is heavy and used to cut bones. This cleaver will require more obtuse edge than a cleaver that is thinner and designed to cut vegetables. The reason is really simple if you tried to cut a bone with the thin vegetable cleaver it might do it but it would chip. Also a bone buster won't be as hard as a much harder vegetable cleaver. They are designed to cut different things. It is really a trade off on each knife in that knives designed for a particular application works best with one steel while another application will get better results with a different steel. This is the only point I'm making here in regards to the steels. Some steels can't take or hold a very acute edge but dull quickly, while others don't get as sharp but hold its level of sharpness longer. It really does depend on each steels strengths in regards to the application it will be applied to.

Keep asking as I'm a big believer in the only stupid question is those you don't ask. I'm more than willing to answer what I can but I'm neither a pro sharpener nor an expert on steels. I'm a simple home cook that 3 years ago got into kitchen knives in a big way and have since used a lot of knives made of different steels.
 
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