Accurate terms, history and the heat-treat.

The Tourist

Banned
For more than a year there has been a (silly) debate enduring over the correct nomenclature of Japanese knives. To me, the answer has always simply been "a history book away," but the debate continues.

For many, the discussion of terms leads to confusion. People want to buy a good knife, and Japanese kitchen knives can get expensive. Most of us heretics try to do accurate research on terms, history and the proper Rc rating for heat treatment. It's that simple.

The other day my catalog from the Japan Woodworker arrived. If you do not receive this, please notify them and peruse the products. It's sort of a "if they don't have it you don't need it" collection, and usually I check them first.

For our purposes, it is a Japanese company, selling Japanese products, many from older periods of Japanese history. I hope you get the drift of that.

On page 80 of the JWW catalog is a description of a Harvesting Knife for sale, a tool to be used outdoors. Here is the description:

Harvesting Knife Part number #10.093.10 is a hand forged lamination of high carbon steel and wrought iron material, hand tempered to Rc 62-63. It is used by farmers and gardeners for hand harvesting such items as cabbage, lettuce, etc. and comes razor sharp in a wooden scabbard with belt loop. Blade length is 5 1/2 and overall length is 10 1/2.
Price is $48.75

I'd like to address the nomenclature.

First, even the Japanese use the word lamination. I have been told that the correct Japanese word is always "damascus."

Second, it has been proffered that a hard use knife must have a heat treat to about Rc 55 to ensure toughness for strength and guard against chipping. I can think of no occupation more strenuous than that of a farmer during a harvest.

Last is the price--$48.75. While I've taken some flak for the high polish I use on kitchen knives, you don't have to settle when superior products are available at reasonable prices.

However, you should be aware that many tradesmen are doing some very serious research in getting you some decent kitchenware. That means no BS, no snake oil, no selective history.
 

PieSusan

Tortes Are Us
Super Site Supporter
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. I miss Andy, my best friend knew all about this stuff, too. It is why he helped pick out safe kitchen knives and Chinese cleavers for me. (He was almost afraid to get me a cleaver--he didn't want me to hurt myself but when I did with a cheap one, he changed his mind. A sharp, well made knife is always best in the kitchen).

I also learned that it is so much easier to prep when you have a proper knife for the job and when it is sharp.

These are things that my grandpa knew, too and so did my mom but although she never put a knife in the dishwasher, she did not keep her knives sharp enough.

It is why my mom always borrowed the knives Andy got me. lol
 

The Tourist

Banned
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. I miss Andy, my best friend knew all about this stuff, too.

I'd like to stress that these are things I did not know. While my Dad worked in a plant that did heat treatment, I had to have many of these things explained to me. And I had to read some history.

To this day I get info from Buzz, JoeC and Locutus. Last week I wrote to my no-brother-good-inlaw who is a metallurgist. Locutus was using a new alloy that was proving difficult to sharpen. I asked my BIL to research that info.

Admittedly, I have my own opinion on many aspects of this study. It just makes sense.

One polisher on a youtube interview stated that he spent 10 years with a master craftsman, and 15 years on his own. Despite his notoriety, he had been personally satisfied with only one sword.

I will never stop learning and studying, it is simply impossible to do anything else.
 

PieSusan

Tortes Are Us
Super Site Supporter
TT, life is one big lesson. I hope to never stop learning. my prep school's motto? "Learning is for life."
 

S.Shepherd

New member
For more than a year there has been a (silly) debate enduring over the correct nomenclature of Japanese knives. To me, the answer has always simply been "a history book away," but the debate continues.

For many, the discussion of terms leads to confusion. People want to buy a good knife, and Japanese kitchen knives can get expensive. Most of us heretics try to do accurate research on terms, history and the proper Rc rating for heat treatment. It's that simple.

The other day my catalog from the Japan Woodworker arrived. If you do not receive this, please notify them and peruse the products. It's sort of a "if they don't have it you don't need it" collection, and usually I check them first.

For our purposes, it is a Japanese company, selling Japanese products, many from older periods of Japanese history. I hope you get the drift of that.

On page 80 of the JWW catalog is a description of a Harvesting Knife for sale, a tool to be used outdoors. Here is the description:

Harvesting Knife Part number #10.093.10 is a hand forged lamination of high carbon steel and wrought iron material, hand tempered to Rc 62-63. It is used by farmers and gardeners for hand harvesting such items as cabbage, lettuce, etc. and comes razor sharp in a wooden scabbard with belt loop. Blade length is 5 1/2 and overall length is 10 1/2.
Price is $48.75

I'd like to address the nomenclature.

First, even the Japanese use the word lamination. I have been told that the correct Japanese word is always "damascus."

Second, it has been proffered that a hard use knife must have a heat treat to about Rc 55 to ensure toughness for strength and guard against chipping. I can think of no occupation more strenuous than that of a farmer during a harvest.

Last is the price--$48.75. While I've taken some flak for the high polish I use on kitchen knives, you don't have to settle when superior products are available at reasonable prices.

However, you should be aware that many tradesmen are doing some very serious research in getting you some decent kitchenware. That means no BS, no snake oil, no selective history.



let me give you a little help....and a little pee on the heads of a few.

Japanese laminated blades come in a few types (lets stick with kitchen knives(
Honyaki- used to mean forged out of 1 kind of steel..now any single steel is advertised as honyaki

Kasumi- usually means "cladded" also can be called "sanmai"-3 layers
there's also a 2 layer and I can't remember what thats called.
As far as the "damascus"... the japanese call it "SUMINAGASHI"
it's usually laminated steel, some use 33 layers of softer metal, then laminated to a hard steel core. Here's a few examples
http://www.kinknives.com/2suminagashi.htm

You're goin to notice in alot of japanese catalogs, they like to take liberties with words in their advertising. I've seen kitchen knives listed as being "tamahagane", and they were under $200. There's no way-unless it's stolen- a knife made from tamahagane is going to be under $1000, and thats being conservative.

japanese is a tough language, especially when advertising is written to appeal to western markets, and the appeal of the "samurai sword"
 

S.Shepherd

New member
and to be even a bigger picker of nits--

"damascus" steel should be actually called 'pattern welded"
True Damascus patterns are formed when carbon trace elements form visible swirls in the steel mix. These elements change properties when the steel is work hardened (forged), creating the patterns. Thats called "wootz" steel, how they made it is or was an lost art, I'm not sure anyone has actually figgured out how it was made or has been able to duplicate it yet.
 

bigjim

Mess Cook
Super Site Supporter
One problem with the term damascus as applied to knives is that the term originally, or maybe concurrently, applied to an entirely different metalworking process, that of welding strips of metal around a mandrel to form a tube. Early gun barrels were made this way. Lamination is the term applied to layering thin strips of a materiel one on top of another. I have wondered why Japanese knives are damascus, not laminated.

I'm guessing that the term originates from the city, where the original process for barrels was developed, most decidely not in Japan.

Either way, the process makes for a good cutting tool.
 

buzzard767

golfaknifeaholic
Gold Site Supporter
Honyaki- used to mean forged out of 1 kind of steel..now any single steel is advertised as honyaki

Kasumi- usually means "cladded" also can be called "sanmai"-3 layers
there's also a 2 layer and I can't remember what thats called.

Sean - You are absolutely correct. Honyaki translate to "true-forged" which eliminates ground knives made of strip steels. Honyaki is difficult to do and this is where the high prices come from. To advertise stamped strip steels as Honyaki is a huge disservice to the customer. Not that there's anything wrong with strip steel blades. I'm presently waiting for one (3 1/2 months now) that may turn out to be my best knife if it meets certain geometry parameters.

I think Kasuma specifically refers to forge welded traditional Japanese single edges knives where the Hagane (cutting edge) is welded to one side of the Jigane (cladding) only. San Mai (also called Warikomi) definitely means a centered Hagane cladded on both sides by the softer Jigane and they are double edged.

It's a little confusing and I might not have it quite right but I know I'm close. :bonk:

Buzz
 

PieSusan

Tortes Are Us
Super Site Supporter
I know that there are a lot of different opinions when it comes to what is the best knife. I still think that it depends upon what you need it for and how it feels in your hand. The rest is aesthetics and that, too, is subjective.

I thank everyone for beng civil in this thread. I know it is a subject that people are very passionate about and I can appreciate that. I love to read and learn and I thank you for that, too.
 

S.Shepherd

New member
One problem with the term damascus as applied to knives is that the term originally, or maybe concurrently, applied to an entirely different metalworking process, that of welding strips of metal around a mandrel to form a tube. Early gun barrels were made this way. Lamination is the term applied to layering thin strips of a materiel one on top of another. I have wondered why Japanese knives are damascus, not laminated.

I'm guessing that the term originates from the city, where the original process for barrels was developed, most decidely not in Japan.

Either way, the process makes for a good cutting tool.


btw....I've seen no performance enhancement by either a pattern welded or sumanagashi blade. It does make a pretty blade.

here's a little history on the term Damascus steel
http://www.essortment.com/all/historydamascus_rhcy.htm

and even more heady..
http://archaeology.about.com/b/2006/12/01/damascus-steel.htm
 
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The Tourist

Banned
Oh, I agree with you. The twists and turns of the language are frustrating and fascinating. For Constantinemas my wife bought me a very unique book on Japanese cutlery.

The glossary is divided into three columns. The Japanese word, the English translation and the Japanese pictograph or character.

In most cases, the discussion with a potential client revolves around the three ideas of "damascus, clad or folded."

Obviously to SShepard and Buzz the simplest definition is something like "European damascus, stacked and folded/welded." Yes, I know this is a generality. But in defining the basic cross-section of the blade blank to a client, this is a pretty good overall assesment.

In fact, to the American perspective, "laminated" is the more accurate idea.

The concept of "soft but tough" has always baffled me. A knife is for slicing, not for being pounded through something like a chisel. If this type of severe cleaving is needed, then get the right tool--a real chisel or an axe.
 

Locutus

New member
Sean,

If the information I have is correct, and I can't absolutely guarantee that it is, the term "Damascus steel" came into use due to folded and laminated sword blades made in the city of Damascus, long before firearms were available.

The process of forging and "hammer welding" around a mandrel was then applied to the barrels of firearms.

I don't knop whether forged "folded and laminated" swords were first made in Japan or ancient Damascus, but from what I've been able to glean in my research, they seem to have both arrived at basically the same process independently.

BTW, just to be ornery, it seems to me that "clad" and "Damascus" are both properly referred to as laminated, but clad cannot be properly called Damascus. (OTOH, I could be mistaken! :twak: )
 

The Tourist

Banned
These responses demonstrate my point--in a left handed sort of way. All of us handle, service or sharpen knives (and one is a cutler).

Slap a European damascus hunting knife and an Hattori in front of us and we say, "Yeah, but..."

I would like us to honestly and sincerely offer our best of intentions along with our services. More than anything, the clients paying our rent deserve some explanations.
 

S.Shepherd

New member
Sean,

If the information I have is correct, and I can't absolutely guarantee that it is, the term "Damascus steel" came into use due to folded and laminated sword blades made in the city of Damascus, long before firearms were available.

The process of forging and "hammer welding" around a mandrel was then applied to the barrels of firearms.

I don't knop whether forged "folded and laminated" swords were first made in Japan or ancient Damascus, but from what I've been able to glean in my research, they seem to have both arrived at basically the same process independently.

BTW, just to be ornery, it seems to me that "clad" and "Damascus" are both properly referred to as laminated, but clad cannot be properly called Damascus. (OTOH, I could be mistaken! :twak: )

not exactly

wootz steel is alot different that tamahagane
 

The Tourist

Banned
I know that there are a lot of different opinions when it comes to what is the best knife.

The operative word and idea here is "best knife." In most cases, I'm not picking a knife or a price point for myself. I just bought a personal knife(s) loaded with chrome. I needed/wanted it for a certain set of conditions in my life. Just because I feel that way doesn't mean it is the correct implement and choice for all of my clients. They have their own needs, and it's not a case of "my way or the highway."

S.Shepherd said:
as far as I'm concerned, that should be a steadfast rule.

I'm not a cutler with your knowledge (while I wish I had it). For me each nuance represents more of a learning experience. Kind of fun, actually. But as I reponded to PieSusan, I have certain reponsibilities as part of the job.

Additionally, I don't know why folks have such a hard time saying, "I don't know, let me research that." I just contacted my BIL on CPM-M4 alloy because I had zero experience with it. The latest and greatest knife in 'Blade' magazine might be a poor choice in an individual's use of that tool.

For example, you can get a clad kitchen knife at some very affordable prices. You can get it sharp, and all it takes is hot soapy water for cleaning and careful storage. It will return years of great service.

And we just had a thread about affordable Chinese cleavers as a parallel example. Now there's an item where insight, personal skill sets and defined useage set a tone. I don't use them, but it doesn't mean a client should avoid them or their most common alloy and construction.


 

S.Shepherd

New member
I know that there are a lot of different opinions when it comes to what is the best knife. I still think that it depends upon what you need it for and how it feels in your hand. The rest is aesthetics and that, too, is subjective.

I thank everyone for beng civil in this thread. I know it is a subject that people are very passionate about and I can appreciate that. I love to read and learn and I thank you for that, too.


personally...I don't think there's a "best knife"

I do believe there's a best knife for the job

just like steel, for example..you wouldn't use white steel for a dive knife

and you wouldn't want a 440A yanagi
 

The Tourist

Banned
personally...I don't think there's a "best knife"

I do believe there's a best knife for the job

In that statement you have my full agreement.

The problem with forums on any topic is that you have the slim chance of eliciting a position with the reader in a few short paragraphs before he loses interest. Most things are a simplification or a generality.

In fact, I'll be glad if a unschooled food hobbyist walks away from our presentation here with a fuller knowledge of "European knives" vs "all Japanese knives."

For example, I do not know how to fold an egg, or even when to do so. A food hobbyist might be able to write an entire chapter on that singular kitchen procedure. The problem is that I might only want to know about the procedure in general.

Somewhere out there is a NCT member who will pick up a Japanese style laminate knife and make a test slice through a tomato. If they shrug and say, "Gee, that's better than my stuff at home," we might have a new believer.

However, if you and I get into a discussion about "Soligen steel vs. S30V Paul Bos HT alloy" we'll lose half of the audience.
 
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