When the mighty take a tumble.............

There's nearly nothing in the world that grates on me more seriously than being in the presence of a busty dowager matron who is an authority on simply everything and is lecturing at highest decibel on whatever. I had the occasion to see and hear such a person shortly ago and then saw her take a header into total embarrassment right afterward - and it was just too funny for words.

I was standing in line at the Wal-Mart pharmacy and right in front of me was an older couple - they called each other by name several times - Richard and his dear wife, Marion. As we stood there waiting a very nice-looking young Amish family came past - the couple in full Amish dress, he with a full Amish-style beard and the requisite suspenders and she in her pretty little white hat and ankle-length, lavendar dress and their little boy, dressed like his father and both father and son wearing the Amish-style flat straw hats. Marion launched, at full voice, into a rant about how "the Amish never, ever inhabit places like Wal-Mart and what in the world were these people doing there? Richard assured her that apparently, they do come to Wal-Mart, for there they were! She then, still in high dudgeon, wondered where they left their horse and buggy in the parking lot. Again, Richard tried to shush her up and told her that horses and buggys couldn't travel on interstate highways and they probably drove to Wal-Mart. Again, she launched into her stentorian rant that the Amish NEVER drive cars - it's forbidden. They may occasionally ride in vehicles but NEVER own or drive them! And she certainly would know more than Richard did, as her friend lives in Bucks County, PA! SHE knows and Richard definitely doesn't!

I stood back and mercifully kept my big mouth shut. As luck would have it, we all happened to leave the building at the same time. The Amish family was leading the way into the parking lot, then Richard and Marion and finally me, bringing up the rear. When the young Amish family hopped into the biggest, whitest Cadilac Escalade SUV I ever saw and pulled away, Richard nudged his wife and said, "Well there you go Marion, there's his buggy and all 486 of his horses!" To save both Marion and myself from further embarrassment I quickly got in my car before I just dissolved into laughter! It was just too funny and Marion didn't have a single word to say! Her face was a study, though............. :whistling:
 

QSis

Grill Master
Staff member
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Actually, I thought pretty much the way Marion thought. About owning and driving cars, anyway.

Times, they are a-changin'!

Lee
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Lee. The thing is, people like the Amish and Menonites have to change with those times. Many of the younger members of the Amish communities are leaving the sect in large numbers, wanting to experience the "real" world outside what they know. It's a real shame, I think, that this is happening, too. What's out here is so very far removed from the quiet and peaceful life they have led before and I honestly can't think it's "better" at all! I've traveled through the Amish Country of Pennsylvania and it's some of the most beautiful farmland I've ever seen - lush and fruitful - and they do it almost entirely by hand, with horses and oxen. Their farms are so clean and white looking and absolutely beautiful. I almost envy the Amish, Menonites and Shakers the life they live. Once upon a time America was a lot more like that but certainly not now. With the advent of "modernization" and mechanation, I think we've lost something in translation. Something pure and good and very basic! And I agree with CF, those who are responsible for all the authoritarianism and "good" things we have today also vote. Kind of scary! I'd have to say, there's no denying that I, like nearly everyone, enjoy those "good things" and probably couldn't get along without most of them, but there are times when I'd sure like to try. :huh:
 

Sass Muffin

Coffee Queen ☕
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As a rule..Amish women don't go out in public wearing fancy colours such as lavender or wearing a little white cap.

I think the family you saw were old order Mennonite.. and yes.. they drive just about any sort of vehicle as they aren't as strict as the Amish.
Tho the Amish do some mighty strange things that don't appear to be adherent to their plain ways.
Generators hidden in the barns, they smoke weed and drink alcohol.
I live 45 minutes from some of the largest Amish communities in Indiana, and we have some Amish, but mostly Mennonites living around here.
 
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Thank you for correcting me on what I may or may not have seen yesterday - Amish vs. Mennonite. However, the point of my post had little to do with that fact (on which I'm NOT an authority!) as much as it did with how funny it was to hear a very loud and rude matron being gently but profoundly set on her posterior by a quiet and gentle little man!
That's what I found so funny and was basically what I posted about.

And just as a matter of interest, the young woman was, indeed, wearing a dusty lavender frock and a small white cap on the back of her head - a cap with ties hanging down on either sides, it looked almost square. She was also wearing black stockings and black hightop, lace-up leather shoes.
She looked a far cry from "fancy", as did her husband and son! If you've ever seen the movie "April Love", they looked just exactly like the people depicted in that old movie - Amish or Quaker. I've no idea if Mennonites were even in fashion back in those days. Hence, my "mistake" in identifying them. Both Hollywood and probably my ancestors, were known to be a bit lax in a matter of accuracy!

Fallon :dizzy:
 

ChowderMan

Pizza Chef
Super Site Supporter
okay. there's a batch of what is old-time called "plain folk"

Quakers, Mennonite, Amish.
in order of reactionary severity.

the traditional Amish do not do hair nets - it's bonnets.
nor colors. there's black and then there's . . . uhm black.

the indicatory hair net with strings is Mennonite.

so yeah - loud mouth matron is so far off course as to miss desert by several million calories.

Mennonite typically don't do the straw hat / no shoes routine.
so that's a bit of a puzzlement.

Mennonite by and large do not have issues with "modern technology"
Mennonite do "cars"

Amish accept battery powered stuff, like cell phones, but won't use "electricity off the pole" - except where "laws" require them to do stuff like refrigerate their milk. then again, I've seen more than one milk house with a diesel engine driving the refrigerant compressor.

Amish have some quirky implementations - horse drawn cutter bar / sickle carts with a diesel engine powering the sickle bar . . .

oh, it's diesel "ok" because diesels don't need electricity aka "spark plugs" - just in case you were wondering about that.....

but no pneumatic tires. iron rims; perhaps with solid rubber outers.

Quakers are less reactionary than either Mennonite or Amish. however comma having been in the ultra-conservative Wilburite Quaker community, they bought a car - painted all the chrome black and drove where ever they wished.
no neckties.
no lapels.
no zippers.
no shoe laces.
button people all-the-way.

but methinks all the ultra-conservatives of the Wilburite era/group are gone. if you need a curiosity - visit a conservative Friends Meetinghouse cemetery - nothing fancy. marble (typically) stone set flush with the ground, name-born-died. that's it.
 
Thanks to my mom, I discovered that I need to correct myself in one respect......the movie I remembered was not "April Love" but was, in fact, one entitled "Friendly Persuasion" that had to do with a Quaker Family and I believe it starred Cary Grant and Anthony Perkins. I do remember that in the plot of the movie it took place during the time of the Civil War and the son, played by Perkins, wanted to fight for what he believed was right and, as good Quakers, his parents were set against participating. I haven't seen the movie in many years but recall that it was really good.

Fallon :bonk:
 
Just as a matter of interest that I found quite interesting I just learned from my mom, who did a pretty thorough study of comparative relgions while she was in college....the Quakers absolutely are NOT Amish by any stretch. According to Mom, many historians, movie makers and just regular people, often confuse the two - I think I did, as a matter of fact.

Fallon :blush:
 

ChowderMan

Pizza Chef
Super Site Supporter
>>a movie.
movies are not real; in terms of properly representing - in dramatized fiction - actual facts relating to plain folk, kindly do not believe any of it.

Quakers vs Amish vs Mennonite

the Quaker movement originated in England, mid-16oo's. eventually they "fled" to America for religious freedom. the King of England owed Willie's father a whole bunch of money, so forehence got Willie the deed to so much "English" colony lands.

Penn's Woods (aka Pennsylvania) was thus established on a basis of religious tolerance and became a new world magnet for other folk seeking similar refuge.

the Amish - aka Pennsylvania Dutch - were in fact not Dutch but Deutch (Deutch=German) coming from the Black Forest area of Strasbourg/Freiburg - which was French or German, depending on the timing of which particular war one draw one's line.

now...curiously the Mennonite roots _are_ in fact from Holland / Dutch - as in the "founding principle dude." but a great number of emigrant "Mennonite" came from Switzerland, vicinity Zurich - which if you check a map is a hopscotch from Freiburg.

the other curious fact is that Mennonites pre-date Amish; actually holding that the Amish splintered off the Mennonite tenant, rejecting the Mennonite worldly ways for a more simple existence.....

but anyway, all three groups focus on the simple concept that every individual has unfettered access to "God" - no clergy required - which was at the time, the biggie issue between the Catholic church and Martin Luther / Reformation / "Church of England" / "King as Pope" / etc.....
 

QSis

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Staff member
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Well, Fallon, although your main point in your original post may have been overlooked, the conversation and facts it prompted are really interesting to me!

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread!

Lee
 

Sass Muffin

Coffee Queen ☕
Gold Site Supporter
Thank you for correcting me on what I may or may not have seen yesterday - Amish vs. Mennonite. However, the point of my post had little to do with that fact (on which I'm NOT an authority!) as much as it did with how funny it was to hear a very loud and rude matron being gently but profoundly set on her posterior by a quiet and gentle little man!
That's what I found so funny and was basically what I posted about.

And just as a matter of interest, the young woman was, indeed, wearing a dusty lavender frock and a small white cap on the back of her head - a cap with ties hanging down on either sides, it looked almost square. She was also wearing black stockings and black hightop, lace-up leather shoes.
She looked a far cry from "fancy", as did her husband and son! If you've ever seen the movie "April Love", they looked just exactly like the people depicted in that old movie - Amish or Quaker. I've no idea if Mennonites were even in fashion back in those days. Hence, my "mistake" in identifying them. Both Hollywood and probably my ancestors, were known to be a bit lax in a matter of accuracy!

Fallon :dizzy:


Point taken.
Here is how the young Mennonite women around here dress when they are out and about.
The elder women do as well.
Sometimes the men wear straw hats if they are out working in the fields, some are bearded, some aren't.

mennonite.jpg

This is how the Amish women dress, only... when they go out in public, they put their black bonnet on over the white mesh cap.
If one passes by a farm on a summer day, you may see a mother with youngsters out hanging the washing, and she (the mother) may have on a dress of a different colour.. with just the white cap on.
Point being.. Amish women don't go to public places for the most part unless they are dressed in the traditional garb that their faith dictates.

amish girls.jpg
 
Lollie - These photographs are wonderful - the top picture of the women in their long frocks and small white caps are exactly what this young woman I saw looked like! As a matter of fact, the woman on the far right in the back in the photo is wearing a dress just about the color of the one the young mother was wearing - that dark, dusty, purpley lavender color. Of coarse, the quirks of cameras and photography often make colors look different then they actually are.

Ian suggested that perhaps the small family I saw were Shakers, as we have several Shaker communities near where we live but he mentioned that most often the old order Shakers didn't marry or have children. They propogated their faith through subscription and adopting orphans into their communities. In many ways they looked and lived in an Amish or Quaker fashion - we've visited one of the Shaker villages nearby and the people who live there are mostly quite elderly now. And nearly all women, we noted.

Fallon :biggrin:
 
Chowder Man - Your insights and information on the various sects are fascinating. Thanks so much for helping me to understand it all so very much better. What do you know about the Shakers? Neither Ian nor I are too well versed in their culture other than knowing that they didn't believe much in secular marriage or having kids. That's about the extent of our knowledge. That and the fact that they made a living through the building of beautiful furniture! We have a Shaker hutch in our kitchen, complete with the flour mill and all and I just love it. We found it at an old farm auction several years ago and after we got married we had it rehabbed and refinished. They just don't make furniture like that nowdays. There's another group I've always been curious about - they live in Iowa in the Amana Colonies and I honestly can't remembered what they are called - whether Memmonite or what, but whatever they are it's similar in nature and appearance to the Mennonites or Amish. In the Amana Colonies they make furniture, woolens (do weaving of cloth and make some gorgeous clothing which they sell) and have the most wonderful restaurants I've ever eaten in. Also, the famous Amana appliances are produced in the Colonies. I know precious little about the people, unfortunately.

Fallon :huh:
 
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ChowderMan

Pizza Chef
Super Site Supporter
there are many many sects / splinter groups of that era - religious freedom was a pretty big deal "back then" -

groups formed in different area / slightly different times.
and just as today - Baptist / Methodists / Lutheran / Presbyterian / on-and-on-goes-the-list - they had some common and some different ideas/beliefs/practices.

perhaps the "common ground" idea that caused these groups to separate from "other" groups was the belief that individuals did not need a priest, minister, pope, king, etc to "interpret" or "intercede" in their faiths&beliefs. this of course was a major threat to the power and control the church and/or state - and could not be tolerated.

I guess the major difference was they didn't set about killing each other in the name of "religion" - a lot of that still going on today.

had to go look up the Amana Colony - never heard of them... curiously turns out they too are from the same southwestern corner of Germany / Switzerland, but substantially later - roughly a century later - than for example the Amish.

some of the history is here:
http://amanacolonies.com/pages/about-amana-colonies/history.php

the Shakers were also a small sect - with some charismatic leadership - basic beliefs similar to all the plain folk. started in England, left for America following much persecution. the term Shaker was actually a bit derogatory at the time, referencing their physical behavior during worship services. all that kind of stuff is on-line for look-up if you're interested in the details.

as time passed most of these groups assimilated into the more secular world - the Amish being the most recognized "hold-out" - but there are others

there still is an active Shaker community in Maine
http://www.shaker.lib.me.us/about.html
I suspect it has changed a bit since the original "rules"

we have several Mennonite farms / families in our area - I've frequented one farm stand for years - actually the bottom of their bank barn. one of the daughters, while still in school, was always in traditional dress - I guess she is moving on as this year she is no longer keeping that tradition - I hardly recognized her this spring - makeup, spiffy hair do, earrings, etc.
another example I see often are Mennonite women in modest, but not traditional, dress with an ultra tiny head covering. things change.
 

Mountain man

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Gold Site Supporter
This is an interesting thread for me. As a kid I worked for and ran with Mennonites raising vegetables. For the last 7 years I have lived surrounded by old order Amish. I bought my farm from an Amish family. Have some very good friends in the community around here. They supply muscle to do things my age and health don't allow anymore and I supply equipment and skills they don't have. They know I am a fair mechanic with a good assortment of tools and I end up working on a variety of stuff. I also find things like parts etc. on the internet for them. The young boys help me with wood cutting and any heavy lifting I need done. They like when I take them to places like Dicks and our big local gun shop. We load up and go spotting for deer in the fall and it is great fun. I know most any dirt roads around on both sides of the border and they are hanging out both sides of the car with 3 lights going at once. They love when I let them run my skid steer and log splitter. One is a pretty fair operator with the skid steer. Last week i went down with my weed eater and helped trim around all their buildings for the wedding. Then took my backhoe down and moved the sheds they build to make room for buggy parking.
 
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